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Legion
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PostSubject: On Religion and Beliefs   Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:34 am

*I am Agnostic-Athiest. I awknowlege the possibility of a higher being, but I don't believe. I do, however, greatly enjoy psychology and how humans work. This thread is, in itself, me attempting to learn. I'd prefer if it was kept up to a certain iota of maturity, as it's a controversial topic, and I'm basically asking for a catalyst to start a flamewar.

I want to know how anyone these days can possibly believe in God (In the Catholic/Christian/Mormon etc sense). Teach me. Look at this world around you for a moment, and open your mind a bit. It isn't my intention to convert you, but make you think. I want you to think for yourself. At the same time, I'd like you to show me why God would want these things how they are.

Africa: Many tribes in Africa are, obviously, suffering in the purest sense of the word. An underabundance of food. Disease. Lack of education. They, quite literally, have no future. They live through hell everyday. Why is this? Why should they suffer because they were born there? But here's the kicker; many of them don't believe in your God. Do the math here. They live in hell, they die in hell, they go to hell, they rot in hell. Could they have worshipped God, though? Could they have been shown the Bible, and could they have understood it? Would they have followed it?

Probably not. Why would an "all-loving" God send them to Hell? They could not have worshipped Him! They could not follow the commandments. This is a flawed system by an omnipotent being.

Bible: How could anyone believe this book for anything more than guidelines for morals and life? A few hundred years ago, the church would be trying to kill you for even bringing up the fact that the world was more than a few thousand years old. Now it is accepted as fact that the world is various million years old. Excuse me, did they just change a holy book? Did they just edit the holy word of God himself? Why would they need to worry about a couple people thinking the world is old? They have God; isn't He all you need?

Also evolution. If I remember correctly, the current pope accepts evolution as fact. This screams something.

Evil: I could come up with some long example, but it's 12:30AM, and a Greek Philosopher by the name of Epicurus did it for me with his riddle.

"If God is willing to prevent evil, but not able to? Then he is not omnipotent.
If he is able but not willing? Then he is malevolant.
If both willing and able, then from whence cometh evil?
If he is both unwilling and unable to, then why call him a God at all?"

Feel free to try to refute my points/explain/leave feedback. I am human, I am flawed, much like our flawed precinception of a benevolent God.
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:45 am

Scientific view point.

I dislike the idea of an all knowing all seeing "god."
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Mon Jan 31, 2011 4:47 am

Legion wrote:
*I am Agnostic-Athiest. I awknowlege the possibility of a higher being, but I don't believe. I do, however, greatly enjoy psychology and how humans work. This thread is, in itself, me attempting to learn. I'd prefer if it was kept up to a certain iota of maturity, as it's a controversial topic, and I'm basically asking for a catalyst to start a flamewar.
Religion on a forum full of kids = Flame war and trolls. You cant do anything about it.

Legion wrote:
I want to know how anyone these days can possibly believe in God (In the Catholic/Christian/Mormon etc sense). Teach me. Look at this world around you for a moment, and open your mind a bit. It isn't my intention to convert you, but make you think. I want you to think for yourself. At the same time, I'd like you to show me why God would want these things how they are.
God wouldn't want the things how they are, he gave us brains, we use them, certainly not the right way most of the time. That is my way to see it.

Legion wrote:
Africa: Many tribes in Africa are, obviously, suffering in the purest sense of the word. An underabundance of food. Disease. Lack of education. They, quite literally, have no future. They live through hell everyday. Why is this? Why should they suffer because they were born there? But here's the kicker; many of them don't believe in your God. Do the math here. They live in hell, they die in hell, they go to hell, they rot in hell. Could they have worshipped God, though? Could they have been shown the Bible, and could they have understood it? Would they have followed it?
I see your point, the thing is, lets say they find food every 2 days. It will be a Thank God moment, we found food. Not a Fuck we live in hell compared to America, get what I'm saying? Not saying they are totally blinded by the fact that many countries are way ahead of em in many ways, but there is a point where you have nothing else but God.

Legion wrote:
Bible: How could anyone believe this book for anything more than guidelines for morals and life? A few hundred years ago, the church would be trying to kill you for even bringing up the fact that the world was more than a few thousand years old. Now it is accepted as fact that the world is various million years old. Excuse me, did they just change a holy book? Did they just edit the holy word of God himself? Why would they need to worry about a couple people thinking the world is old? They have God; isn't He all you need?
The bible is crap. I am a Christian, and I think its total bullshit.
I do believe its a brain washing tools, so are churches for some people, its there so people follow a certain path, in a certain way.


Legion wrote:
Also evolution. If I remember correctly, the current pope accepts evolution as fact. This screams something.
The pope also recently accepted sex with condoms over abstinence, its total bullshit. Its obviously for $$.

Thats just me though, we all have our way to see things.

Religion is something that will never be proven, can you imagine a world where people are 100% certain Heaven and Hell exists? That would be insane, the crime rate would be much lower, people would be scared, churches would be packed, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Mon Jan 31, 2011 11:26 am

I too am an Agnostic-Atheist. However much more so an Agnostic. I am as fairly certain as a person with no proof whatsoever can be that there is indeed a higher power. I do not like to think of it that much because it makes my head heart and at the end of the day I realize I haven't gotten any closer to having any idea of what the fuck this higher power may be.

I just don't like that this higher power is a God and that all should worship him as such. The bible is just propagandist bullshit that some people took advantage of way back when. The idea of having a pope is just putting an actual face on religion but all he's doing is making Christianity less divine.
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Thu Feb 03, 2011 6:20 am

well i do believe that above us
there is some kind of power its not have to be person or somethink super natural and its not have to be a llife ,
it can be just the thing that made the bigbang to explo into our universe

and ye all the bible are lies for meh =]
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:36 am

So you're agnostic..?
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:00 am

i guess so
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:25 pm

^
Agnostic unconvinced of his agnosticism. l0l

I'm agnostic myself, and any predisposition to religion is because I come from a fairly religious family. I'm open to the idea of a higher power and would certainly accept an idea of God if such a thing could be proven.

It's more along the lines of me feeling that religions in general tend to agree only on the more intrinsic ideas present among most people. Quite frankly, that doesn't count for much as far as I'm concerned because you don't need to believe in Jesus to comprehend the reasoning behind considering killing immoral, as an example. The fact that the divisions from religion to religion only become more obvious from that point leads me to be somewhat skeptical of any organized religion that attests to believing in / worshipping a God; someone must be doing it wrong - hell, maybe we all are.
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:14 pm

I'm roman catholic and somewhat part agnostic =P

I believe in God and i think that hes the one who could have created the 'big bang' and all that stuff, i also think he just chooses to let everyone live there lives without him interfering in the world, we can think for our selves for a reason Very Happy

But i don't really believe in the bible, but i do believe its not to be read literally, like everything has a hidden message in the passages and stuff,

so i do believe in it, but i don't go to church every week and i don't pray every day at home before i go to sleep lolll
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Tue Feb 08, 2011 12:42 am

This topic is awesome. Legion, you should come to my Humanities class, you'll fit right in. HA.
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:29 am

The way I look at religion is how Buddhists (?) think of their religion. Its a set of guidelines, rules; things that help you along life. I don't think religion shouldn't be taken literally at all. More of a philosophical thing.

I don't know if there is a God, Hell, Heaven, Satan, Jesus, or any of that stuff. I also don't know if the bible is even true. For all I know, religion and non-religion doesn't even exist. But for some reason I have come to understand that it doesn't matter if "He" exists or doesn't exist. As long as we follow the messages "He" is trying to set out.

I know religion is man made. Cave men believed in all the different gods. Why don't we still pray for rain and stuff? Science of course have taught us how nature works. There are still many unknown answers out in the world that Science hasn't answered yet, however. And for that, I appreciate everything that Science has given me. But for all the unexplainable, I try and think that perhaps there is a more powerful being up there.

It's nice to have faith in something. Religion gives us that sense of comfort. I know that literally every single war was because of religion. Hundreds of people die in "God's name" All of that is bull shit. No one has a connection to God. No one or nothing. The only reason why there is so much anger and hatred in this world is because the absent of God in a man. Its like saying someone is mad because they don't have any happiness in them. But no one can have a conversation with god or anything like that.

So all in all, it doesn't matter if God exists or not. As long as his impact on the world (the good one! not the bad one Sad ) stays with us forever. Religion has shown man to look at the world as a gift, and to treat everyone and everything with the utmost care because sooner or later your going to leave this place. I'm sure everyone has been in a really bad situation. It can be being homeless, being hungry, getting hurt. But don't blame god for these things. It doesn't say in the bible you get a free pass for life. That's what happens in Life.

Thank you for reading.
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:39 am

im god
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:39 am

can god make a taco that can even give him the shits....??????
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:21 pm

Roman-Catholic
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Fri Apr 01, 2011 5:56 pm

Just remember this:

Don't judge the religion because of the actions of the people who were apart of it.


I'm personaly a Catholic and I'm very proud to be one. I can't explain if there is a God or not, that's why it's called Faith. But to me, I know and am positif that a Higher-Being, God, exists because to me it just makes a lot of sense. Either way, even if He did not exist, I would rather die believing that I would go to heaven, then believing I would just rot in the earth.
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Fri Apr 01, 2011 6:03 pm

Am I the only part Muslim here?
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:17 pm

I do not like the word "atheist" because of the original meaning of the word (someone who lacks morals).

Therefor I usually use the term "non-theist". But more recently I've become anti-theist, because religion is hurting our economy and just plain causing damage to society.

"Churches take in billions of dollars each year, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more."
-George Carlin

For those who claim agnosticism... you're wrong. God CAN be disproved. For nearly a hundred years now, we've known exactly how the universe formed from the big bang. And in the last decade, we now know exactly how the big bang itself happened. Nothing is unexplained... there is no need for a deity anymore.

If god went through so much trouble to hide his existence from us, then why would he send us to hell if we don't acknowledge his existence? Isn't that a bit contradicting?
To be agnostic would be like saying today is the only day that you have ever lived, and god just put your previous memories in your brain to make you think that you have lived longer. You can't prove he didn't... it's just ridiculous to think like that.
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Fri Apr 01, 2011 9:52 pm

GunEcstasy wrote:
I do not like the word "atheist" because of the original meaning of the word (someone who lacks morals).

Therefor I usually use the term "non-theist". But more recently I've become anti-theist, because religion is hurting our economy and just plain causing damage to society.

"Churches take in billions of dollars each year, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more."
-George Carlin

For those who claim agnosticism... you're wrong. God CAN be disproved. For nearly a hundred years now, we've known exactly how the universe formed from the big bang. And in the last decade, we now know exactly how the big bang itself happened. Nothing is unexplained... there is no need for a deity anymore.

If god went through so much trouble to hide his existence from us, then why would he send us to hell if we don't acknowledge his existence? Isn't that a bit contradicting?
To be agnostic would be like saying today is the only day that you have ever lived, and god just put your previous memories in your brain to make you think that you have lived longer. You can't prove he didn't... it's just ridiculous to think like that.

I was under the impression that agnosticism was the belief in a higher being that cannot be categorized or defined by an organized religion. With that being said, your examples and arguments AGAINST agnosticism are completely absurd. You use the Big Bang theory to disprove religion, and yet simply put, the Big Bang theory is still a THEORY, despite being widely accepted by most institutions and scholars. One could argue that the need for religion is stronger than ever, given recent events and the rapid change that occurs in OUR lifetimes which would not be present in the past say, hundred years. Global warming, nuclear weapons, the thinning of the ozone layer, depletion of natural resources, etc. Most people seek something reassuring; some look to science for guidance, others to religion. Who are you to say that those who seek solace in religion are WRONG?

Religion is full of contradictions, your example is just one among the thousands. I don't understand your point about agnosticism, could you expand on that a bit more?
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Sat Apr 02, 2011 6:35 am

For those of you that look to the Bible for it's literary qualities and moral lessons; I got a couple other stories I might like to recommend for you. You might enjoy The Three Little Pigs. That's a good one. It has a nice happy ending. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood. Although it does have that one x-rated part where the Big-Bad-Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I liked best: ...and all the king's horses, and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty together again. That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no god. None. Not one. Never was. No god.

R.I.P. George Carlin
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:35 am

GunEcstasy wrote:
I do not like the word "atheist" because of the original meaning of the word (someone who lacks morals).

Therefor I usually use the term "non-theist". But more recently I've become anti-theist, because religion is hurting our economy and just plain causing damage to society.

"Churches take in billions of dollars each year, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more."
-George Carlin

For those who claim agnosticism... you're wrong. God CAN be disproved. For nearly a hundred years now, we've known exactly how the universe formed from the big bang. And in the last decade, we now know exactly how the big bang itself happened. Nothing is unexplained... there is no need for a deity anymore.

If god went through so much trouble to hide his existence from us, then why would he send us to hell if we don't acknowledge his existence? Isn't that a bit contradicting?
To be agnostic would be like saying today is the only day that you have ever lived, and god just put your previous memories in your brain to make you think that you have lived longer. You can't prove he didn't... it's just ridiculous to think like that.

ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
n.
1.
a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

Well now that you actually know what agnostic means. You are an idiot, God has not been disproved. You think the church would still be as powerful as it is without actually holding any weight because it does not exist? As you quoted yourself,

"Churches take in billions of dollars each year, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more."
-George Carlin

And you really think any country would support this act, because this is still the case, if God can actually without a doubt be disproved? Gg buddy. Also just a little constructive criticism, next time you use a quote don't use it from a COMEDIAN that was the biggest hippy and religion hating man that has lived.

There are a hell of a lot of unexplained acts on a daily basis, and as far as I'd like to believe that the existence of our being is purely scientific there is an eerie and mysterious way of certain things. These "feelings" as you could call them, cannot be explained by science as you cannot describe them. So for the time being I am agnostic, unsure of what is true, not gullible enough to follow the church, as there is a whole load of bullshit coming from it, and not giving up entirely by being an atheist.

Also, atheism is derived from "lacking morals" because back in the day the word was invented, the people who got caught supporting atheism were murdered for not following the teachings of religion. People didn't have a choice back then. Now the situation is completely different and to enunciate the word with its original definition would be preposterous.

The only thing I can actually agree on with you is that religion is the number 1 cause of murder in this world. Then it's just a matter of how important it is to the person that he/she is right.
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:09 pm

I think it is pretty much pointless to speak about a topic like this. We all have our separate beliefs and or religions. We will never come to an understanding, and it'll be this long arse argument that'll neeeeeeeeeeeever ever end. So while we're all still friends? f3

Thaaaank you, Olivia. Srs. c:
o/t; I'm Christian, my mom's Christian, & my boyfriend is too.
Yet juuuust because he's not allowed to eat pork, my mother goes friggin` buhllistic and tries to change his mind. I think I'm like this really mentally challenged sort of Christian who belives in most of the things in the bible & the commandments. Not really sure on where abstinence stays on my part though. However I do NOT participate in Church stuff nor do I go every Sunday or whatever. I'd rather respect whatever you believe in rather than trying to send you up in Heaven with me. c:

However my mother is a beyond extreme Christian who forcefully tries to make everyone believe in whatever she & her religion says. Namely, one of those Christians you would most likely want to bitchslap.
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Sat Apr 02, 2011 1:14 pm

I don't eat pork it tastes weird....

and becaue I'm part muslim
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Sat Apr 02, 2011 7:15 pm

On a certain level, I agree with agnosticism. To say "because there is no evidence for design, there is no design", would bring you on the same ground as intelligent design advocates. There is no falsifiable evidence against the existence of god. However, there is also no falsifiable evidence for the existence of fairies, so shouldn't we be agnostic towards fairies?

Nevertheless, there are not two sides to this debate. You can choose to believe in god or believe in atheism. However, to quote Phillip K. Dick, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, is still there". That's really what science tells us. Whether we believe things or not, there's an external reality.

Whether god exists is irrelevant to science. To prove he does or doesn't is a waste of time because it's impossible. However, just like most people who don't believe in fairies, atheists go ahead and assume that the existence of god is extremely unlikely.

Finally, in my subjective opinion, It is fine to call yourself an agnostic, but there is very little reason for doing so. You may as well be on the fence about fairies, too.
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:25 pm

Think of it this way. If God cured every disease and stopped every conflict in the world right now, we humans wouldnt have learned anything. God doesnt want to control us but he tests us to see if we do the right thing. Why give the kid everything he wants? That would just spoil him.
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PostSubject: Re: On Religion and Beliefs   Sat Apr 02, 2011 10:54 pm

Ravage, you are a wise man.

LOL!
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